Dennis Cooper and John Waters - Under Normal CIrcumstances.pdf

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John Waters
Author(s): Dennis Cooper and John Waters
Source:
BOMB,
No. 87 (Spring, 2004), pp. 22-29
Published by:
New Art Publications
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http://www.jstor.org/stable/40427006
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¿.
He
JohnWaterswould be a pure formality. is easily the worlds most famous icon of
introducing
he
As
culturaloutrage and transgression. a filmmaker, has created a body of workthat is widely
a
and
recognizedas one of the greattreasuresof Americanmovie history, he has inspired degree
of reverencein his admirersthat few ifany other directorscan claim. Earlyclassics likeFemale
Trouble and PinkFlamingos remainamong the most quoted and name-checked movies of all
time. Midcareer filmslikethe Broadway-anointed
Hairsprayand Waters'scomedy masterpiece
Serial Mom launched the aesthetics of youngerdirectorslikeWes Andersonand Todd Solondz.
films
Recent movies likeCecil ß. Demented and Peckerare easily his most daringand impressive
to date. Waters is that rarecreature,a great artistwhose oeuvre has achieved not only critical
respect but also massive internationalpopularity.Still, Waters's visual art, in which he pho-
into
tographsold, low-budgetmovies playingon his TV set then combines select freeze-frames
unknownand uncelebratedoutside the contempo-
remainsrelatively
wittypictorialnarratives,
raryart world, and even to some degree within it. Justas it took many years for the film
to
community acknowledge the genius in Waters'sunique,iconoclastic movies,the art world has
his
taken itssweet time ingiving equally originaland daredevilvisual art itsdue. Now,afterclose
to a decade of being exhibitedin galleriesaround the world,Waters'sphotographsand photo-
at
an
graphiccollages are receiving officialstamp of approval in the formof a retrospective the
New Museum of Contemporary Art in downtown New York.Cocurated by Lisa Phillips and
and runsthroughlate April.
MarvinHeifermanjohn Waters:Change of Lifeopened in February
UNDER
NORMAL
CIRCUMSTANCES,
22 0
SPRING
2004
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Art.
of
and
Fine
American Arts, New York, theNew Museum Contemporary
of
All
3
Co.,
Self-Portrait, 10 colorphotographs,Vi x 49 Va"overall. photoscourtesy theartist,
1994,
to
DENNIS COOPER: Would itbe fair say
is
a
thatyouthink facialexpression more
than
interesting a brushstroke?
A
JOHNWATERS: facialexpression?
A
is
DC: Letme put itthisway. painting con-
Your
structedof brushstrokes. visualart is
and most of
of
constructed freeze-f
rames,
the
theminvolve
peoples faces,so ina way,
is
facialexpression yourarts equivalentof
the brushstroke.
I
JW:I see itmoreas mymaterial.don'tthink
because I think workis
thatits mypaint,
my
and editingmore than its
about writing
or
about photography color. I love to take
films
color pictures of black-and-white
to
transferred video off the TV monitor
because it looks so sicklyand bad. The
in
kind
imagesI use tella story a different of
way than the source material intended.
That's what I mean when I say it's more
about writing.
Maybethe facialexpressions
work subtitles:
like
theytellyou howto read
Because mypieces are
narrative.
the work's
sto-
of
likestoryboards,
many them.They're
that I don't have to turninto a
ryboards
it
a
movie.I'mtaking movieand turning into
a story
board.
of
DC: One of the greatinnovations your
workboth in the visualarts and in filmis
as
the wayyou presentpersonality a seri-
in
ous artistic
subject.There's
yourinterest
and combining
imagesa matterof finding
which
balance between your personality,
all
informs yourart,and the personalities
of yoursubjects?
it,
JW:It'sa matterof refining to me. And
it
reducing to whatpeople inthe
hopefully
filmbusinesscall a highconcept. It'sthat
one moment that delightsme for some
reason,and that I hope can delightothers,
others- or get them to
or ratherhorrify
see in a different
way.Most of mysource
is
failedmoviesor forgotten
material from
the bottomof the
moviesor moviesfrom
$1.98reduced bin that no one cares about
capturing it, arranging it, anymore.If I use an image froman epic
personality-
it
the
it.
depicting Andthenthere's overriding movie,it'salwaysto destroy insome way:
of
selecting as inHairinthe Gote,the moneyshotfrom
personality yourart.Is editing,
Lana Backwards, 1994, eight color photographs, 5 x 56 Va"overall.
ART 0
23
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I think
every big movie but with a hair in it. ing.I'mnot againstE! entertainment.
is
Person- they actually did a great biographyof
Personality certainly
important.
me
in
alityis what interests in writing, art, Divine.I'm not againstwhattheydo, but I
in movies,everything. ifI can make my don't see the connectionin any way.But
So
its then I watch television almost never. I
photographshave a new personality,
themnew life.
meanthe onlytimeI everturn the tele-
on
giving
I started doing this because I wanted vision is to take picturesof it for myart-
stills that were not available. I wanted work,or to watch porno. Turning the
on
that'sveryhardfor
publicity photos that no newspaper televisionis something
I'm
ratives. telling
them in a different
con-
textand in a different
world,but as in the
I'm
films, making
fun,in a way,of some-
thatI really,
that is
thing
reallylove. I think
the personality all mywork, matter
of
no
if
you likeitor not.
DC: It'sthe way your personality
and the
of
personalities yoursubjects collude and
collide and mixthat'sso interesting.
How
would print.
The workis about show busi-
ness and about an insiderkindof thing.
The whole artworld is about insiders.
You
have to learn how to see and all that.So
that's there and important,but at the
same time, I'm delightingin personality.
And that'swhy I'm neverbored. I mean, I
can sit on a corneror go into a 7-11,
and I
can make up a story about every single
person I see, a reallycomplicated story,
almost, as they walk by.
instantaneously,
Andthat'sgood practice.
DC: In yourstories,
there's
outrageousand
evenjuicystuff, there's sincerity a
a
and
yet
that'sverydiffer-
respectforthe character
ent fromhow,say,E! televisionor Access
Hollywoodgoes forthejuicybutreducesit
to the palatableand banal.
JW:Well, that'sa different
thingbecause
to
We
they're
trying appeal to everybody.
knowthe delightful,
wonderful,
greatthing
about the art world is that you have to
appeal to about three people. Which is
such a relief me. And the threepeople
to
you have to appeal to are especially
moody and snotty.I love that. I'm so for
that.So, it'sthe exact opposite wayof see-
me to do.
much fine-tuning you have to do to
do
DC: You see personality an art form. make sure your personality
as
doesn't inter-
Warhol was interested personality
in
and fere with or overridetheir very distinct
but
depicted it in hiswork, whilehe would
erase himself,
is
yourpersonality the fabric
of yourart.Yourartis yourpersonality,
and
within
that personality
thereare layersof
otherpersonalities. quite complex.
It's
JW:I'mso glad you sayart-' can'tsaythat
word out loud because that'sup to others
to decide. I would neversay I'man artist.
I
hate when you ask people what they do,
and theysay,"I'man artist." believe /'//
I
be
the judge of that.Saying
somebody'swork
is art is a good review.
But what was the
It's
question? Oh, about my personality.
in
completely myphoto showsbecause I'm
stillthe one telling
those twistedlittlenar-
Is
to
personalities? itsecond nature you,or
is that balance a very deliberate and
labored-over
thing?
I
JW:Does it come easy?You know, have a
and that's onlyplace I really
the
ever
studio,
think ideas formyphotographic
of
pieces.
So whenI'mgoingto havea new show,I go
over there,where I have envelopes fullof
I've
photographs takenfor possible future
thembyputting
themall
pieces. I fine-tune
out on the floorand editing
them.It'slike
a
pitching moviein a way.I onlyhavethree
stillsto tell you a whole story.
The movie
pitch is the ultimatehighconcept of the
business. knowthejoke:
You
motion-picture
studioexecutives
havethe attention
spanof
so
gnats, you have to tell themthe whole
in
fun
thing one sentence.Well,I'mmaking
of that process in a way; I'm reducing
all
moviesto the one second that I think
you
But
really
only need to remember. is it my
I
Whenever put myown ¡mage
personality?
in it,I tryto annihilate celebrity.did a
I
my
piece using all these glamorous Greg
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Gormanhead shots of me. I defaced each
one of themina uniqueway:rubber
stamps,
Wite-Out, press-type patterns, rubber
roachesgluedto myface.... I autographed
one of them 100 times to obliteratethe
in
one called Self-Portrait,
image.Or there's
which I turninto Don Knotts.
Well, that's
in
Everybody the
justabout low self-esteem.
does
art worldand show businesssecretly
^m^rám
That'swhy we take
have low self-esteem.
the riskeveryday of havingto worryif
are. I
like
strangers us. That'swhat reviews
Thinkof the worst
JW:It'strue,(laughter)
that's
everhappenedto you.Ifyou can
thing
think a humorous
of
wayto tell somebody
thatstory,
nobodycan get to you.You can't
be blackmailed.
where if
DC: You'reone of the few artists
as
or
someone announceshim- herself a fan
of yours,it's a way for them to identify
themselves.To define oneself as a John
Waters fan is to announce one's way of
at
looking the world.
He
said the best thing.
JW:MatthewMarks
said, "You are the best kindof celebrity
thereis.The onlypeople who recognize
you
true.
are the ones you'dwantto."Andthat's
to
People say the niceststuff me. And the
to
people who say nice stuff me are nice
people, you know? They aren't people
So
at
clutching you and lunatics. what was
the question?
DC: The questionwas goingto followthat
the
JW:I think presshas alwaysbeen pretty
I
movie
fair me.You know, made myfirst
to
I've
shake.
40 yearsago. So I think had a fair
There has been some very,
veryintelligent
about my work.Of course, like
criticism
I
the ones that
everybody, can remember
reallyhurtme. But I neveranswermycrit-
ics. That's the sign of a true amateur,I
believe. So I would disagree with you.
I
Basically, have done what I set out to do
in my life,
yes,and I feel I have been ade-
I
quatelyrewarded,do.
DC: Okay,
thendo you takeyourfameinto
account when you constructyour work?
Areyou consciously
dealingwiththe posi-
tive and negativeimpact that your fame
of
has on the perception yourwork?
But
JW:I makefunof it inthe photographs.
I have completelystopped putting
myself
in my movies. I do 20 to 30 JohnWaters
around the countryevery
performances
B^BBV^^Bflfe^K^^^H
S
r-v
x
in
_c
Q_
£
I
a.
o
u
_o
i
1
I
I
on
mean you put yourself the chopping
I'm
blockforthe restof yourlife. justtrying
to make fun of my weaknessesand cele-
them.
brate
is
DC: That kindof self-examinationone of
thatdistinguish visual
the many
your
things
artfrom
films.
your
are
JW:Myfilms about people who would
neverwin in real life.They always win in
mymovies.
them.Inyour
visual
annihilate
DC: You never
of
thereis plenty annihilation
art,
goingon.
That's
JW:I'mannihilating own celebrity.
my
In
I
a very, different
very
thing. the artworld,
is
as
believe my celebrity a filmmaker the
source of greatsuspicion.I knowthat. I'm
it.
recognizing Its the only thing I can't
change.So I liketo make funof it. That's
mentalhealth,isn'tit? In yourown life,if
you can't changesomething, makefun
you
of it,
to
and you learn livewithitand accept
it. That'smaturity. you can make funof
If
yourworstnight, willsurvive
everybody.
you
that.
DC: {laughter) remember
I'll
statement,
(laughter)
ThenI buttedin.
JW:
DC: WhatI was goingto get at is thatthere
and
of
is a lot of preconception prejudging
whatyoudo becauseyou havesucha strong
notion
image.People have a preconceived
of whatyou do. They'll
glanceat yourwork
and think
theycan judgeit.
JW: Well, I've alwaysthoughtthat,physi-
I'd
cally, neverhaveto go on a diet.Ifyou're
weirdon
myage, and you have something
your face, my mustache,and you wear
shoes,no one looksinthe middle.
strange
DC: (laughter)
I
JW:That'sthe secret,really. just want to
men.
sharethatwithmiddle-aged
is
DC: I guesswhatI'msaying thatas a mas-
sive admirerof your work,and of your
I
recentwork in particular, feel like your
fame and reputationcreate a situation
where your newer work doesn't get the
it
intricate
attention deserves.
JW:I sortof disagree.
DC: Really?
from fame.
not
my
year.I'mcertainly hiding
I recognizeit. I thinkit'spart of mywork.
We're talkingabout a trailerfor my new
moviethatmaybewillbe just me introduc-
Castle used to do. I can't
ingit,likeWilliam
I
say I'm innocent. can't say myfame hap-
It
pened without my participation. hap-
from very
the
pened withmyparticipation
and public-
because I'm a carny,
beginning
When we started,I
ityis free advertising.
didn'thave any moneyforads. So the only
waywe could get people to knowour work
was to make up some kindof persona to
sell it.It wasn'ta lie,the persona,but,yes,I
get dressed as JohnWaters some days. I
admitthat.
I
DC: Knowing
you as a friend, am fasci-
nated that you're interestedin so-called
highart, but you'realso interestedin art
as
that functions
strictly a souvenirof a
certainkindof sensibility. serial-killer
Say
art.Low art,inotherwords.
JW: Well, that is true, but I have never
art
boughtserial-killing in my life.I have a
ART Q
25
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